Discussion:
Calls To White House Outsourced To India
(too old to reply)
leslie
2005-04-13 14:19:43 UTC
Permalink
http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/WeeklyWorldNews/2005/04/11/808531?extID=10026
KeepMedia | Weekly World News: Calls To White House Outsourced To India

"Calls To White House Outsourced To India
Apr 11 '05

By BRETT ANNISTON Next time you call the White House to give the
President a piece of your mind, don't be surprised if the operator's
regional accent is a bit hard to place -- because the administration
has quietly outsourced all phone answering duties to India! "That
cheerful person answering the phone may identify himself as Sam, but
his real name is more likely Satyajit -- and the overwhelming odds are
that he lives somewhere like New Delhi," reveals an administration
source. "Many large companies have outsourced their customer service
lines -- the White House is simply adopting a standard, ..."


--Jerry Leslie
Note: ***@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email
straydog
2005-04-13 14:37:45 UTC
Permalink
I think we citizens should find some lawyers who surely can work out some
arrangement by which we can outsource ourselves (eg. as in corporations,
trusts) so we can by _physically_ here in the USA but _legally_ be
present, in, say, India (or wherever tax is lowest) and just pay our
outsourced taxes to the outsourced tax recipient instead of paying taxes
to the US/etc govt (oh, yes, there is a book sorta on this topic: "The Tax
Exile Report").
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:19:43 GMT
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Calls To White House Outsourced To India
http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/WeeklyWorldNews/2005/04/11/808531?extID=10026
KeepMedia | Weekly World News: Calls To White House Outsourced To India
"Calls To White House Outsourced To India
Apr 11 '05
By BRETT ANNISTON Next time you call the White House to give the
President a piece of your mind, don't be surprised if the operator's
regional accent is a bit hard to place -- because the administration
has quietly outsourced all phone answering duties to India! "That
cheerful person answering the phone may identify himself as Sam, but
his real name is more likely Satyajit -- and the overwhelming odds are
that he lives somewhere like New Delhi," reveals an administration
source. "Many large companies have outsourced their customer service
lines -- the White House is simply adopting a standard, ..."
--Jerry Leslie
R***@wdn.com
2005-04-13 14:40:39 UTC
Permalink
leslie wrote:
http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/WeeklyWorldNews/2005/04/11/808531?extID=10026
Post by leslie
KeepMedia | Weekly World News: Calls To White House Outsourced To India
"Calls To White House Outsourced To India
Apr 11 '05
By BRETT ANNISTON Next time you call the White House to give the
President a piece of your mind, don't be surprised if the
operator's
Post by leslie
regional accent is a bit hard to place -- because the
administration
Post by leslie
has quietly outsourced all phone answering duties to India! "That
cheerful person answering the phone may identify himself as Sam, but
his real name is more likely Satyajit -- and the overwhelming odds are
that he lives somewhere like New Delhi," reveals an administration
source. "Many large companies have outsourced their customer service
lines -- the White House is simply adopting a standard, ..."
--Jerry Leslie
IOW our American tax money is supporting Indian families rather
American
families. We passed welfare reform and told people to get a job, and
then we send some of the jobs they could get abroad. IOW, the Bush
administration is saying "Screw you, poor people", not that it should
surprise anyone.

Cheers,
Russell
BMJ
2005-04-13 14:57:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by leslie
http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/WeeklyWorldNews/2005/04/11/808531?extID=10026
Post by leslie
KeepMedia | Weekly World News: Calls To White House Outsourced To
India
Post by leslie
"Calls To White House Outsourced To India
Apr 11 '05
By BRETT ANNISTON Next time you call the White House to give the
President a piece of your mind, don't be surprised if the
operator's
Post by leslie
regional accent is a bit hard to place -- because the
administration
Post by leslie
has quietly outsourced all phone answering duties to India! "That
cheerful person answering the phone may identify himself as Sam,
but
Post by leslie
his real name is more likely Satyajit -- and the overwhelming odds
are
Post by leslie
that he lives somewhere like New Delhi," reveals an administration
source. "Many large companies have outsourced their customer
service
Post by leslie
lines -- the White House is simply adopting a standard, ..."
--Jerry Leslie
IOW our American tax money is supporting Indian families rather
American
families. We passed welfare reform and told people to get a job, and
then we send some of the jobs they could get abroad. IOW, the Bush
administration is saying "Screw you, poor people", not that it should
surprise anyone.
Cheers,
Russell
Remember when it was said that what was good for General Motors was good
for America?
R***@wdn.com
2005-04-13 15:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Yes, although I'm not sure of the relevance in this case. Are you
saying
that the jobs provided by GM for Americans in American were good
for America? I'm inclined to agree with that. It shows how pathetic
we are becoming that we need to worry about the loss of call center
jobs, which are not exactly the top of the job food chain but at least
are honest work.

BTW I heard a story yesterday about a 10 year old kid who was home
alone from school, sick, when someone broke into his house. He
called 911 and scared the bugler away, but what wasn't mentioned
was why he was home alone. Probably his parents both work in jobs
that don't provide sick leave and/or where they'd be fired if the don't
show up to work. I remember hearing recently about a case where
a mother called into work and said she had to take her son to the
hospital because he broke his arm. The boss said if you don't show
up on time you're fired. She took care of her son, and was fired. The
Bush administration claims it is "pro family", but AFAIK it never
decrys
crap like that. A truly pro family administration would be sending
bills
to Congress for nationally mandated sick leave and health care. IOW,
IMO the Bush administration is full of hypocritical bastards.

Cheers,
Russell
BMJ
2005-04-13 16:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by R***@wdn.com
Yes, although I'm not sure of the relevance in this case. Are you
saying
that the jobs provided by GM for Americans in American were good
for America? I'm inclined to agree with that.
It used to mean that when GM did well, so did the rest of the country.
Then again, that statement was made at a time when
outsourcing/offshoring/whatever hadn't been thought of. I'm sure that
Henry Ford would never have engaged in it.

<snip>
R***@wdn.com
2005-04-13 16:39:17 UTC
Permalink
Of course, when America did well, so did GM. :-)

Cheers,
Russell
zach
2005-04-13 16:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by R***@wdn.com
Yes, although I'm not sure of the relevance in this case. Are you
saying
that the jobs provided by GM for Americans in American were good
for America? I'm inclined to agree with that. It shows how pathetic
we are becoming that we need to worry about the loss of call center
jobs, which are not exactly the top of the job food chain but at least
are honest work.
BTW I heard a story yesterday about a 10 year old kid who was home
alone from school, sick, when someone broke into his house. He
called 911 and scared the bugler away, but what wasn't mentioned
was why he was home alone. Probably his parents both work in jobs
that don't provide sick leave and/or where they'd be fired if the don't
show up to work. I remember hearing recently about a case where
a mother called into work and said she had to take her son to the
hospital because he broke his arm. The boss said if you don't show
up on time you're fired. She took care of her son, and was fired.
The
Post by R***@wdn.com
Bush administration claims it is "pro family", but AFAIK it never
decrys
crap like that.
There is probably more to the story than that. At the local Casino
(again, consider the level of employee), my friends say they have
certain people who will max out their PTO--- this is the new term for
"sick leave": you get a certain number of PTO days, you can use it how
you wish. Many people are so stupid and unreliable that they get to the
end of it for no good reason and then when something really comes up,
they go over and are automatically fired. Sometimes, they used to show
mercy and cover for someome (jeopardizing their own jobs), but then the
people would just end up back in the same boat a few months later
because they were incapable of managing their own lives.
R***@wdn.com
2005-04-13 17:42:01 UTC
Permalink
There may be, but I personally think there is a special, extra toasty,
place in hell for someone who fires someone else on the spot for
taking their child to the hospital, regardless of what the previous
circumstances or history is. In a case like you suggest, I wouldn't
fire them on the spot, but come next performance review their
apparent abuse of leave would be noted. If they can document that
their mother had lukemia and they were donating blood daily or
something like that, OK. Otherwise, I'd fire them then. But there
are many cases where parents are put in very family unfriendly
situations for no other reason than this country is too damned cheap
to invest in its future, its children. Fine, but let's not allow the
President be a damned hypocrite about it. Let the bastard stand
up and tell the truth, that he really doesn't give a damn about
children,
or poor people, or anyone else but his rich friends, oh and by the
way he would very much appreciate it if he could make them richer
with some more tax breaks that the rest of us should pay for, thank
you very much my fellow Americans. But he's too much of a (take
your pick) A] coward, B] liar, C] hypocrite to do that, as we all well
know. YMMV.

Cheers,
Russell
Randy
2005-04-13 16:01:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by leslie
http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/WeeklyWorldNews/2005/04/11/808531?extID=10026
KeepMedia | Weekly World News: Calls To White House Outsourced To India
...

Lousy URL. Here's one that doesn't require a subscription:

http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/politics/61681

Randy
BMJ
2005-04-13 16:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randy
Post by leslie
http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/WeeklyWorldNews/2005/04/11/808531?extID=10026
KeepMedia | Weekly World News: Calls To White House Outsourced To India
...
http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/politics/61681
Randy
Considering the publication associated with that URL, and its level of
journalism, can the article be considered genuine? On the other hand,
wasn't it the first to reveal that Elvis works at a 7-11?
Randy
2005-04-13 17:49:21 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by BMJ
Post by Randy
http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/politics/61681
Randy
Considering the publication associated with that URL, and its level of
journalism, can the article be considered genuine? On the other hand,
wasn't it the first to reveal that Elvis works at a 7-11?
You mean he doesn't? Damn. Cancel my subscription.

Randy
BMJ
2005-04-13 18:09:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randy
...
Post by BMJ
Post by Randy
http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/politics/61681
Randy
Considering the publication associated with that URL, and its level of
journalism, can the article be considered genuine? On the other hand,
wasn't it the first to reveal that Elvis works at a 7-11?
You mean he doesn't? Damn. Cancel my subscription.
Randy
You mean you don't read them while waiting in line at the grocery store?
straydog
2005-04-13 18:18:23 UTC
Permalink
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:09:11 GMT
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Calls To White House Outsourced To India
Post by Randy
...
Post by BMJ
Post by Randy
http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/politics/61681
Randy
Considering the publication associated with that URL, and its level of
journalism, can the article be considered genuine? On the other hand,
wasn't it the first to reveal that Elvis works at a 7-11?
You mean he doesn't? Damn. Cancel my subscription.
Randy
You mean you don't read them while waiting in line at the grocery store?
You guys are a bunch of "keyboard potatoes." What happened to going down
to your local public library where they have all that stuff for
free...even the subscriptions to periodicals on line OR in print? And,
you got your daily excercise if you walked, smell the fresh air (whats
left of it), jaw with the librarians, gaze at the other patrons, socialize
a bit, get out of your cubicles, all that stuff.....
R***@wdn.com
2005-04-13 18:31:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Art,

Hey, I've moved up in the world. I'm out of my cubicle of 14 years,
and have
an office with a door. I have to share it, but my office mate works
nights
and weekends, so it is almost like a private office. Actually, it's
kind of
lonely.

I'm going for a walk to the vending machine for a diet soda. You may
say
"What kind of exercise is that?", but it's 10 floors down. :-)

Cheers,
Russell
straydog
2005-04-13 19:24:06 UTC
Permalink
Date: 13 Apr 2005 11:31:59 -0700
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Keyboard potatoes?.....Re: Calls To White House Outsourced To
India
Hi Art,
Hey, I've moved up in the world.
congrats...
I'm out of my cubicle of 14 years,
congrats...
and have
an office with a door.
do you leave it open when you're there?
...when you are not there?
I have to share it,
tsk, tsk

but my office mate works
nights
and weekends, so it is almost like a private office.
not too bad!

Actually, it's
kind of
lonely.
well...let me ask this....would you rather go back to where you came from?

(you don't have to answer that, yet).
I'm going for a walk to the vending machine
WHAT? You aren't going to the farmer's market?
for a diet soda.
DIET SODA? What happened to organic water?

You may
say
"What kind of exercise is that?", but it's 10 floors down. :-)
I'm glad you used the word "walk" above...otherwise I'd be thinking you
were taking the elevator (vershame).
Cheers,
Russell
R***@wdn.com
2005-04-13 20:11:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by straydog
Date: 13 Apr 2005 11:31:59 -0700
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Keyboard potatoes?.....Re: Calls To White House
Outsourced To
Post by straydog
India
Hi Art,
Hey, I've moved up in the world.
congrats...
I'm out of my cubicle of 14 years,
congrats...
and have
an office with a door.
do you leave it open when you're there?
...when you are not there?
It's closed most of the time. People knock if they want to see me.
Post by straydog
I have to share it,
tsk, tsk
but my office mate works
nights
and weekends, so it is almost like a private office.
not too bad!
Actually, it's
kind of
lonely.
well...let me ask this....would you rather go back to where you came from?
(you don't have to answer that, yet).
I can't. They just put my former job on the website, according
to my sources. "Everybody" is applying for it. That proves
it was good relative to their jobs. ;-)
Post by straydog
I'm going for a walk to the vending machine
WHAT? You aren't going to the farmer's market?
The farmer's market isn't in operation yet this year, and it's probably
3 miles and several hundred vertical feet away.
Post by straydog
for a diet soda.
DIET SODA? What happened to organic water?
LOL. You can't fool me, water is not an organic compound.
(aside: A friend of mine who used to be in chemistry always talked
about the argument over what constitutes an aromatic compound. His
suggestion was they go back to the old definition: "It smells.")


Cheers,
Russell
straydog
2005-04-14 13:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Date: 13 Apr 2005 13:11:48 -0700
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Keyboard potatoes?.....Re: Calls To White House Outsourced To
India
Post by straydog
Post by R***@wdn.com
and have
an office with a door.
do you leave it open when you're there?
...when you are not there?
It's closed most of the time. People knock if they want to see me.
1. I thought all scientific ethics (at least in the past) were supposed to
be "open" & "sharing" & "cooperating" & "available for collaboration" &
...you get my drift?
2. If they knock do you sometimes not answer? ;-)
Post by straydog
Actually, it's
Post by R***@wdn.com
kind of
lonely.
well...let me ask this....would you rather go back to where you came
from?
Post by straydog
(you don't have to answer that, yet).
I can't. They just put my former job on the website, according
to my sources. "Everybody" is applying for it. That proves
it was good relative to their jobs. ;-)
Hmmmm, maybe I should apply, too?
Post by straydog
Post by R***@wdn.com
I'm going for a walk to the vending machine
WHAT? You aren't going to the farmer's market?
The farmer's market isn't in operation yet this year, and it's probably
3 miles and several hundred vertical feet away.
You need to lobby them.
Post by straydog
Post by R***@wdn.com
for a diet soda.
DIET SODA? What happened to organic water?
LOL. You can't fool me, water is not an organic compound.
Well, you know, "organic"...a figure of speech meaning "back to the earth"
back to mother earth, no pesticides, pure from nature, no contaminants, no
plastic, "processed" foods are _out_, even The Mother Earth News (which is
still on the newstands [for dreamers]). I think stuff like fake sugar (eg.
aspartame & saccharin) would not be acceptable to an "organic" freak.
So...that "diet soda" is _out_. ;-)
(aside: A friend of mine who used to be in chemistry always talked
about the argument over what constitutes an aromatic compound. His
suggestion was they go back to the old definition: "It smells.")
Yeah, that's one. Another is anything with an "aromatic" ring (eg.
benzine, hexane). But, we'll probably hear from Josh, now. At least we'll
find out how often he checks this NG.
R***@wdn.com
2005-04-14 13:17:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by straydog
Date: 13 Apr 2005 13:11:48 -0700
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Keyboard potatoes?.....Re: Calls To White House
Outsourced To
Post by straydog
India
Post by straydog
Post by R***@wdn.com
and have
an office with a door.
do you leave it open when you're there?
...when you are not there?
It's closed most of the time. People knock if they want to see me.
1. I thought all scientific ethics (at least in the past) were
supposed to
Post by straydog
be "open" & "sharing" & "cooperating" & "available for collaboration" &
...you get my drift?
That's what e-mail is for. :-)

Real problem is my office is the only only from the dept. on this
floor,
the rest of the dept. is one floor up. ZEveryone knows it isn't the
best arrangement, but OTOH I can look at myself as the spearhead of
the invasion. Today 10th floor, tomorrow the building! ;-)
Post by straydog
2. If they knock do you sometimes not answer? ;-)
No, I always answer.
Post by straydog
Post by straydog
Actually, it's
Post by R***@wdn.com
kind of
lonely.
well...let me ask this....would you rather go back to where you came
from?
Post by straydog
(you don't have to answer that, yet).
I can't. They just put my former job on the website, according
to my sources. "Everybody" is applying for it. That proves
it was good relative to their jobs. ;-)
Hmmmm, maybe I should apply, too?
Post by straydog
Post by R***@wdn.com
I'm going for a walk to the vending machine
WHAT? You aren't going to the farmer's market?
The farmer's market isn't in operation yet this year, and it's probably
3 miles and several hundred vertical feet away.
You need to lobby them.
I doubt if the University wants to give them space, but I could be
wrong.

snip

Cheers,
Russell
straydog
2005-04-14 16:13:01 UTC
Permalink
Date: 14 Apr 2005 06:17:59 -0700
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Keyboard potatoes?.....Re: Calls To White House Outsourced To
India
***
Post by straydog
Post by R***@wdn.com
Post by straydog
do you leave it open when you're there?
...when you are not there?
It's closed most of the time. People knock if they want to see me.
1. I thought all scientific ethics (at least in the past) were
supposed to
Post by straydog
be "open" & "sharing" & "cooperating" & "available for collaboration"
&
Post by straydog
...you get my drift?
That's what e-mail is for. :-)
Oh, like in 80% of my business phone calls, I end up listening to a 2-4
minute voice robot menu with no options to bypass before being dumped on a
voice mail, where 75% of the time, no action is taken?

Actually, when I do get an email address, the action rate does go up.
Unfortunately, the ultimate problem solving rate does not go up as much.
Real problem is my office is the only only from the dept. on this
floor,
the rest of the dept. is one floor up. ZEveryone knows it isn't the
best arrangement, but OTOH I can look at myself as the spearhead of
the invasion. Today 10th floor, tomorrow the building! ;-)
Well, that is one (positive) way to look at it.
Post by straydog
2. If they knock do you sometimes not answer? ;-)
No, I always answer.
OK, good for you.

***
Post by straydog
Post by R***@wdn.com
Post by straydog
WHAT? You aren't going to the farmer's market?
The farmer's market isn't in operation yet this year, and it's
probably
Post by straydog
Post by R***@wdn.com
3 miles and several hundred vertical feet away.
You need to lobby them.
I doubt if the University wants to give them space, but I could be
wrong.
lobby the university and remind them they can get rent income until they
decide to build the Russell Martin Meteorological Pavilion (with you as
permanent director). ;-)
BMJ
2005-04-14 16:23:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by straydog
Date: 14 Apr 2005 06:17:59 -0700
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Keyboard potatoes?.....Re: Calls To White House
Outsourced To
India
***
Post by straydog
Post by R***@wdn.com
Post by straydog
do you leave it open when you're there?
...when you are not there?
It's closed most of the time. People knock if they want to see me.
1. I thought all scientific ethics (at least in the past) were
supposed to
Post by straydog
be "open" & "sharing" & "cooperating" & "available for collaboration"
&
Post by straydog
...you get my drift?
That's what e-mail is for. :-)
Oh, like in 80% of my business phone calls, I end up listening to a 2-4
minute voice robot menu with no options to bypass before being dumped on
a voice mail, where 75% of the time, no action is taken?
Actually, when I do get an email address, the action rate does go up.
Unfortunately, the ultimate problem solving rate does not go up as much.
An ex-boss of mine communicated with me only by e-mail, even though my
office was a few steps around the corner, less than 5 m away. He only
spoke with me if he wanted to chew me out, something he seemed to take
frequent pleasure in.

I once drove him up the wall when I refused to answer he e-mail
messages. I would have thought that he would have tried another means
to get a hold of me, such as *talking*, but was probably beneath him.

He was nuts.

<snip>
Peter K.
2005-04-14 21:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by R***@wdn.com
(aside: A friend of mine who used to be in chemistry always talked
about the argument over what constitutes an aromatic compound. His
suggestion was they go back to the old definition: "It smells.")
With both noses?

Ciao,

Peter K.
BMJ
2005-04-13 19:11:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by straydog
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:09:11 GMT
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Calls To White House Outsourced To India
Post by Randy
...
Post by BMJ
Post by Randy
http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/politics/61681
Randy
Considering the publication associated with that URL, and its level of
journalism, can the article be considered genuine? On the other hand,
wasn't it the first to reveal that Elvis works at a 7-11?
You mean he doesn't? Damn. Cancel my subscription.
Randy
You mean you don't read them while waiting in line at the grocery store?
You guys are a bunch of "keyboard potatoes." What happened to going down
to your local public library where they have all that stuff for
free...
You mean, the library carries "The National Enquirer"? ;-)

even the subscriptions to periodicals on line OR in print? And,
Post by straydog
you got your daily excercise if you walked, smell the fresh air (whats
left of it), jaw with the librarians, gaze at the other patrons,
socialize a bit, get out of your cubicles, all that stuff.....
The nearest branch of the city's public library is more a kindergarten
than anything else. It's hard to concentrate on one's reading when
somebody's kid's howling near one's carrel.
straydog
2005-04-13 19:27:27 UTC
Permalink
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:11:04 GMT
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Keyboard potatoes?.....Re: Calls To White House Outsourced To
India
Post by BMJ
Post by Randy
Post by BMJ
wasn't it the first to reveal that Elvis works at a 7-11?
You mean he doesn't? Damn. Cancel my subscription.
Randy
You mean you don't read them while waiting in line at the grocery store?
You guys are a bunch of "keyboard potatoes." What happened to going down to
your local public library where they have all that stuff for free...
You mean, the library carries "The National Enquirer"? ;-)
Oh, is that what you've been reading recently? ;-)
even the subscriptions to periodicals on line OR in print? And,
you got your daily excercise if you walked, smell the fresh air (whats left
of it), jaw with the librarians, gaze at the other patrons, socialize a
bit, get out of your cubicles, all that stuff.....
The nearest branch of the city's public library is more a kindergarten than
anything else.
Start complaining.

Ask them when they are going to get a sub to the Proc. Nat'l Acad.
Sciences, USA.

It's hard to concentrate on one's reading when somebody's
kid's howling near one's carrel.
1. Use these words: "Shutup, kid"

2. Go when there are no kids around.

3. Borrow the stuff, take your portable scanner and scan into your
computer whatever you can't borrow.

4. Any other problems you need "solutions" to?
BMJ
2005-04-13 20:15:45 UTC
Permalink
straydog wrote:

<snip>
Post by straydog
Post by BMJ
Post by straydog
You guys are a bunch of "keyboard potatoes." What happened to going
down to your local public library where they have all that stuff for
free...
You mean, the library carries "The National Enquirer"? ;-)
Oh, is that what you've been reading recently? ;-)
Where else can I find out the *real* news?
Post by straydog
Post by BMJ
even the subscriptions to periodicals on line OR in print? And,
Post by straydog
you got your daily excercise if you walked, smell the fresh air
(whats left of it), jaw with the librarians, gaze at the other
patrons, socialize a bit, get out of your cubicles, all that stuff.....
The nearest branch of the city's public library is more a kindergarten
than anything else.
Start complaining.
Before I quit teaching, I went to the campus library one day. I was
shocked to hear all the noise with students yakking and all that, so I
went to the front desk and asked what was going on. I was told that
they'd changed the policy recently. When I asked about what happened to
keeping it quiet for studying, I was told soemthing along the lines "oh,
there's an area over there in the corner where they can go to do that".
The days of Marion the Librarian going "Ssssssh!" if one so much as
said peep appear to be long gone.
Post by straydog
Ask them when they are going to get a sub to the Proc. Nat'l Acad.
Sciences, USA.
I'll likely get "Huh?" The only reason I go to the nearby branch of the
library is because it carries some investment periodicals I'm interested
in, but don't want to subscribe to.
Post by straydog
It's hard to concentrate on one's reading when somebody's
Post by BMJ
kid's howling near one's carrel.
1. Use these words: "Shutup, kid"
Not when Mommy's around. After all, Junior needs to express his
childhood exuberance and maintain his self-esteem....by being a royal
pain in the butt to everyone else.
Post by straydog
2. Go when there are no kids around.
I wish. Since it's a community family-oriented library branch, there'll
always be youngsters there expressing their youthful exuberance.

Earplugs! Why didn't I think of it before?
Post by straydog
3. Borrow the stuff, take your portable scanner and scan into your
computer whatever you can't borrow.
I gave up my library membership when it started charging for it several
years ago. Even as a university alumnus, I have to pay in order to
borrow material on campus.

Years ago, when I was living in Saskatchewan, the university library
there offered borrowing privileges to the general public. After all,
the uni was financed by the public through taxes, so why shouldn't it be
able to use some of its facilities? I don't know if it still does that,
but I wish more would.

Meanwhile, I've got piles of journals I have to wade through. Summer
can't come soon enough, because I'd be sitting outside on my balcony
reading then.
Post by straydog
4. Any other problems you need "solutions" to?
Hey, you could start an on-line advice column!
t***@lycos.com
2005-04-14 20:01:25 UTC
Permalink
The sovereign individual
Mark Steyn

New Hampshire

I was stunned to hear they were closing the Rover plant at Longbridge.
Mainly I was stunned because I had no idea they still made cars at
Longbridge. I was vaguely following things up to a decade or three
back: I knew that 'British Leyland' had gone, and that Red Robbo
was no longer picketing the plant every night on ITN and the BBC, and
that various foreigners owned what was left of the British car
industry. But the news that Longbridge is going out of business is far
less amazing to me than the news that they were still (after a fashion)
in business - in 2005!

I would hazard that most Britons psychologically closed down Longbridge
a generation back. During last year's Thatcher jubilee, in among the
huzzahs, I received a striking number of letters from self-described
Conservatives bemoaning the way that, thanks to Maggie, Britain no
longer 'made' anything. That may be so, but it's not thanks to
Maggie so much as the two decades pre-Maggie. Permanence is the
illusion of every age, and the trade-union colossi who traipsed in and
out of No. 10 throughout the Seventies were too dazzled by their own
unlikely eminence to consider what the world might look like the day
after tomorrow.

The question I find myself mulling over now is this: what's to stop
everything turning into the British car industry? Thomas Friedman's
new book, The World Is Flat, includes among many intriguing titbits a
fascinating item about the number of US tax returns being prepared by
accountants in India - that's to say, you're a guy with a house
and a job in North Carolina and your taxes are done by a fellow in
Bangalore, who knows his way around the W-2s, W-4s, 1099s, etc. If
you're a Welsh accountant and you're wondering, 'What the
hell's a W-2?', well, that's why you haven't got a piece of the
US tax-return market. But the lads in the sub-continent figured it was
worth mugging up on. So in 2003, 25,000 American tax returns were
prepared in India. In 2004, it was 100,000. This year, it's expected
to be 400,000. And in a decade or so a lot of mediocre junior
accountants in North Carolina will be feeling a bit like Red Robbo did
round about the start of Mrs Thatcher's second term. And if
accountancy isn't a safe, steady job any more, you might as well run
off and join the circus.

Traditional economic theory holds that goods can be traded but services
are produced and consumed locally. But technology is turning a lot of
services into goods: every evening in small hospitals across America
radiologists email CAT scans to Australia or India (if you're an NHS
patient on a three-year waiting list and you're wondering what a CAT
scan is, ask a friend in Bupa). When they come into work the following
morning, the analysis of the scans is waiting for them. Last
century's disadvantage - the vast geographical distance - is this
century's big plus. It means, as the old song used to go, when it's
moonlight on the Hudson, it's CAT-scan-reading time on the Ganges.

It was only after stumbling across this that I realised I was doing
exactly the same thing: I recently hired someone from several
time-zones away to provide certain administrative and managerial
services. I opted for someone halfway round the world for the same
reason as those hospitals: it's a way for a small operation to become
a round-the-clock one. We do what the radiologists do: let our distant
colleague know what we want every evening, and it's there when we
start work in the morning. It has some disadvantages - I can't get
drunk and hit on her at the office Christmas party. On the other hand,
I could fly out there and hit on her over Labor Day just with the money
I save outsourcing my tax return to Bombay.

Is the CBI still boring on about the need for Britain to move to
Central European Time in order to 'enable us to compete more
effectively in Europe'? It was a big thing with the British business
lobby a decade ago, when GMT was about as welcome to them as PMT. I
seem to recall they cooked up some 'National Time Week' time-waster
to promote the cause. The problem, if memory serves, was that by the
time Johnny Businessman sauntered into the office at 10.30 a.m. London
time, it was 11.30 a.m. Frankfurt time and Herr Schweinhund had left
for an early lunch. Doubtless there would have been real economic
benefits in abandoning GMT: the west coast of Ireland could have
launched itself as a new tourist hotspot, the Land of the Midday Moon.
But the difference between the Central European Time-servers and those
radiologists in Idaho emailing Australia is revealing: the former
demand the world be rearranged to pander to one's deficiencies; the
latter find innovations by exploiting the existing order. It's not
difficult to predict which approach is likely to pay off. Central
European Time is a time whose idea will never come. Instead, an
increasing number of enterprises use the planet's time-zones as a way
of flexi-timing their operations across the entire day.

One of the curious trends of the modern world is that even as the UN,
EU and other transnational elites demand that our politics become ever
more centralised and homogenised and one-size-fits-all, successful
business operations are decentralising: they're practising corporate
federalism. If you order a laptop custom-built to your precise
specifications with the features you want, Dell will assemble it with
components made by US, British, Irish, German, Japanese, Israeli, South
Korean, Taiwanese, Thai and Chinese companies at factories located in
Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, China, Malaysia, Singapore, the
Philippines, Indonesia, Mexico and Costa Rica; it will be assembled in
Penang on a Monday and arrive in Nashville by Thursday.

For the purposes of comparison, the UN has far more cash swilling
about, and its global network predates Dell's by half a century; yet,
when the tsunami hit, it took not four days but four weeks for its
staff to establish a presence at Banda Aceh. Dell's 'coalition'
is pretty eclectic - capitalist, Eurostatist, Chinese Communist,
Chinese Nationalist, Latin, Anglophone, Jewish, Muslim - yet it
functions harmoniously. Meanwhile, all that that pompous Norwegian who
heads up the UN humanitarian bureaucracy could do was give press
conferences in New York hectoring the developed world for its
'stinginess', so every Western government promptly dipped into its
taxpayers' pockets and threw more money at the pompous Norwegian than
he can ever usefully spend, and the only result will be that, when the
next tsunami hits, it'll take 'em even longer to get to the scene,
but the pompous Norwegian will be able to give even more hectoring
press conferences, perhaps with lavish visual aids.

Networks like Dell's are already more relevant to the future of
Indonesia than the pompous Norwegian bloke's UN bureaucracy is. But
that's not where the process ends. I bumped into an old friend
walking down the street in Montreal the other day. He's Chinese and
when he got to Canada in the Eighties he was jolly glad about it. Now
he tells me he and the wife and kids are going back to China. He says
he's had enough of being taxed up the wazoo to subsidise bloated
government programmes of no value, corporate welfare for privileged
Liberal party clients, the native mafiosi who run the human sinkholes
of the Indian reservations, etc. He's never sounded more Canadian.
But, after 17 years, he's finally figured out that Her Majesty's
decrepit dominion is no place for a guy who wants to work hard and
build a future for his family. If that's your bag, China's the land
of opportunity. It used to be difficult for emigrants to return,
because if you took out Canadian or any other nationality, the
People's Republic revoked your Chinese citizenship. But they're now
thinking about permitting dual nationality in order to attract some of
their lost talent home from the West. A couple of hours later, I heard
a member of the Chinese community on the radio talking about folks
heading back: in recent years, China has been Canada's single biggest
source of immigrants - accounting for 16 per cent of new permanent
residents - but this fellow was saying he reckoned pretty soon more
Chinese would be leaving Canada than coming to it.

I was still digesting that when I read a newspaper story about the
Chinese buying up Canada's resource base, starting with the
zinc/copper/nickel-mining giant Noranda. Even though Canada still gives
foreign 'aid' to China, our roles seem to have reversed - with
China now playing the dynamic, advanced, first-world economy with the
educated citizenry and Canada reduced to some ramshackle backwater of
no interest except for a hinterland brimming with cheap and exploitable
natural resources. China has 160 cities with a population of a million
or more; Canada can barely muster a handful. Between 1995 and 2002,
China had a net loss of 15 million manufacturing jobs, but it made no
difference to the booming economy because of the rapidly expanding
high-value service sector. The anti-globalists' stereotype of vast
Third World populations working in Western-owned sweatshops is already
out of date. 'Where people have hope,' says a Chinese official
quoted by Thomas Friedman, 'you have a middle class.' China and
India have the fastest-growing middle classes in the world.

Ireland managed to persuade its wandering sons of Erin to return.
Imagine if China did the same. For two generations, as fertility rates
have nose-dived in the West, the complaceniks of Canada and Western
Europe have clung to the assumption that they can go on using the Third
World as a farm team and denude developing societies of their best and
brightest. Even if one accepts this as enlightened and progressive
rather than lazy and selfish, how could anyone seriously credit it as a
long-term strategy on which to pin the viability of Euro-Canadian
welfarism? The most vital economic resource is people, and that's the
one thing much of the Western world is running out of. The
anti-globalists can demonise sovereign states and sovereign companies
- the Dells and other multinationals - but we're entering the age
of the sovereign individual, and that will be a lot harder for the
anti-glob mob to attack. By 2010, a smart energetic Chinaman or Indian
will be able to write his own ticket anywhere he wants. How attractive
will the prospect of moving to the European Union and supporting a
population of geriatric ingrate Continentals be? Not just compared with
working in America or Australia but with the economic opportunities in
his own country?

Here's a prediction: Europe's dependence on immigration will in the
end prove far more catastrophic than America's dependence on oil. The
immigrants will run out long before the oil does. And the demographic
disaster will be exacerbated by a continent-wide version of 'white
flight' - the abandonment of socially dysfunctional, economically
moribund American cities in the Seventies by a frustrated middle class.
Not all Dutchmen or Belgians will wish to follow their compatriots down
the Eurinal of history. And, just as you can be a US tax accountant in
Bangalore, in the age of the sovereign individual there's no reason
why a Dutch accountant can't do tax returns for his Dutch clients
from New Zealand or the Bahamas.

Permanence is always an illusion. The excuse is that, well, the big
things change slowly, almost imperceptibly. But they're changing very
fast right now and you must actively embrace ignorance to be as
impervious to reality as Europe's ruling class is. High welfare
costs, low birthrates, high taxes, and zero appeal to the world's
dynamic, ever more mobile wealth-creating class is a recipe for
societal meltdown. But, as long as there's always someone else to
look down on, your own descent is less obvious. So, in the Guardian
last week, Christian Aid took out the following advertisement:
'It's not called slavery nowadays. It's called free trade.'

Yeah, sure. I'd love to email to India the CAT-scan of whichever
Christian Aid wallah thought that would work, even as overheated
rhetoric. The popular British 'charity' is campaigning for what it
calls 'trade justice': 'Poor countries must be given the freedom
to help their own farmers and industries.' By 'poor countries'
they mean the dictators and crooks and incompetents who run 'poor
countries'; by 'given the freedom to help' they mean encouraged
in the delusions that have made 'poor countries' out of once
prosperous territories. When Ghana (the 'case study' Christian Aid
is currently exercised about) became independent in 1957, per capita
income was as high as South Korea. Now South Korea's GDP per capita
is over eight times what Ghana's is.

Who would you rather showed up at the airport? A company in that Dell
network, or the condescending neo-imperialists of Christian Aid and the
rest of the anachronistic Big Humanitarian lobby?

http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php?id=5974&page=1
R***@wdn.com
2005-04-15 14:41:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@lycos.com
The sovereign individual
Mark Steyn
New Hampshire
snip
Post by t***@lycos.com
I was still digesting that when I read a newspaper story about the
Chinese buying up Canada's resource base, starting with the
zinc/copper/nickel-mining giant Noranda. Even though Canada still gives
foreign 'aid' to China, our roles seem to have reversed - with
China now playing the dynamic, advanced, first-world economy with the
educated citizenry and Canada reduced to some ramshackle backwater of
no interest except for a hinterland brimming with cheap and
exploitable
Post by t***@lycos.com
natural resources. China has 160 cities with a population of a
million
Post by t***@lycos.com
or more; Canada can barely muster a handful.
Duh, China has a billion+ people. Let's harangue North Dakota for
having no cities of more than a million while we're at it. And BTW
there are no cities of 100,000 or more on the Moon! Who's in charge of
economic development there? Clearly they ought to be fired. :-) And
it sounds like this implies cities of more than a million people are a
good thing. Some people like them, but IMO on whole living in a large
city is not the best way to live.
Post by t***@lycos.com
Between 1995 and 2002,
China had a net loss of 15 million manufacturing jobs, but it made no
difference to the booming economy because of the rapidly expanding
high-value service sector. The anti-globalists' stereotype of vast
Third World populations working in Western-owned sweatshops is
already
Post by t***@lycos.com
out of date. 'Where people have hope,' says a Chinese official
quoted by Thomas Friedman, 'you have a middle class.' China and
India have the fastest-growing middle classes in the world.
Of course a Chinese official could be expected to get that wrong.
The statement should have been where you have a middle class people
have hope.

rest snipped

Cheers,
Russell
straydog
2005-04-15 15:24:26 UTC
Permalink
Date: 15 Apr 2005 07:41:27 -0700
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Calls To White House Outsourced To India
Post by t***@lycos.com
The sovereign individual
Mark Steyn
New Hampshire
snip
Post by t***@lycos.com
I was still digesting that when I read a newspaper story about the
Chinese buying up Canada's resource base, starting with the
zinc/copper/nickel-mining giant Noranda. Even though Canada still
gives
Post by t***@lycos.com
foreign 'aid' to China, our roles seem to have reversed - with
China now playing the dynamic, advanced, first-world economy with the
educated citizenry and Canada reduced to some ramshackle backwater of
no interest except for a hinterland brimming with cheap and
exploitable
Post by t***@lycos.com
natural resources. China has 160 cities with a population of a
million
Post by t***@lycos.com
or more; Canada can barely muster a handful.
Duh, China has a billion+ people. Let's harangue North Dakota for
having no cities of more than a million while we're at it. And BTW
there are no cities of 100,000 or more on the Moon! Who's in charge of
economic development there? Clearly they ought to be fired. :-) And
it sounds like this implies cities of more than a million people are a
good thing. Some people like them, but IMO on whole living in a large
city is not the best way to live.
Post by t***@lycos.com
Between 1995 and 2002,
China had a net loss of 15 million manufacturing jobs, but it made no
difference to the booming economy because of the rapidly expanding
high-value service sector. The anti-globalists' stereotype of vast
Third World populations working in Western-owned sweatshops is
already
Post by t***@lycos.com
out of date. 'Where people have hope,' says a Chinese official
quoted by Thomas Friedman, 'you have a middle class.' China and
India have the fastest-growing middle classes in the world.
Of course a Chinese official could be expected to get that wrong.
The statement should have been where you have a middle class people
have hope.
rest snipped
Cheers,
Russell
Well, Russell, I read the screed, too. He had some important points as
well as some questionalble (maybe wrong) points. Old timers I've
communicated with by email say the same thing is happening in Oz and Gt
Britain: consolidation of major big business, expansion and its all
driving out the small independent shops in small towns, which are
undergoing various kinds of deterioration, blight appearing, etc. Big box
development, etc. All part of the rich-get-richer-etc. Expansion of the
gap. Disenfranchisement, marginalization. Jobs going to immigrants b/c
they will work for less, jobs being exported to India/China, the whole
nine yards. His perspective was a little obtuse, but I've heard of some
of the things he talked about. Then, Griffin's book talked about 50-70% of
all the real estate in most of the cities in the USA being owned by
foreigners.... Kamal's Foreign Direct Investment..its a joke. In the long
run all the temporary present era influx is going to be swamped by net
outflow. Nobody becomes a landlord with the idea of losing money; they get
it all back many times over, over time. It was the same deal back in
ancient times: landlords charged high rents and renters were ALWAYS poor.
zach
2005-04-15 20:29:05 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by straydog
Well, Russell, I read the screed, too. He had some important points as
well as some questionalble (maybe wrong) points. Old timers I've
communicated with by email say the same thing is happening in Oz and Gt
Britain: consolidation of major big business, expansion and its all
driving out the small independent shops in small towns, which are
undergoing various kinds of deterioration, blight appearing, etc. Big box
development, etc. All part of the rich-get-richer-etc. Expansion of the
gap. Disenfranchisement, marginalization. Jobs going to immigrants b/c
they will work for less, jobs being exported to India/China, the whole
nine yards.
More people are living at a higher standard of living than ever in
human history. More people in the world live in democracies and liberal
democracies than at any time in human history. Average life expetancy
for our species is the highest it has ever been, and it keeps
increasing. More people (and a higher percentage) own houses in the
United States that at any time since the formation of our country (what
is it like in Canada?). I am making twice the salary I made a decade
ago; and despite high housing prices here in the Silicon Valley, I am
still better off than I was then, having more disposable real income.
It's called progress.
straydog
2005-04-15 20:48:43 UTC
Permalink
Date: 15 Apr 2005 13:29:05 -0700
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Calls To White House Outsourced To India
<snip>
Post by straydog
Well, Russell, I read the screed, too. He had some important points
as
Post by straydog
well as some questionalble (maybe wrong) points. Old timers I've
communicated with by email say the same thing is happening in Oz and
Gt
Post by straydog
Britain: consolidation of major big business, expansion and its all
driving out the small independent shops in small towns, which are
undergoing various kinds of deterioration, blight appearing, etc. Big
box
Post by straydog
development, etc. All part of the rich-get-richer-etc. Expansion of
the
Post by straydog
gap. Disenfranchisement, marginalization. Jobs going to immigrants
b/c
Post by straydog
they will work for less, jobs being exported to India/China, the
whole
Post by straydog
nine yards.
More people are living at a higher standard of living than ever in
human history.
I'd like to see your: i) source, ii) analysis, and iii) definition of
standard of living behind this statement. If you want to correlate
standard of living with number of cars, longivity, modern communications,
then you also need to address: a) disparity in distribution of wealth
(between haves and have nots, the rich and the poor), b) an assessment
of modern disease presence and include mental health in that
assessment, c) and don't forget those difficult to evaluate but priceless
qualities (eg. family values, morals, ethics, education). I could name
some more.

More people in the world live in democracies and liberal
democracies than at any time in human history.
You would have to define democracies (and include factors such as to what
degree do citizens influence lawmaking compared to the influence of
special interest groups [in today's WSJ is a front page article on the
very large rise in corporate-sponsored trips for senators & congressmen
that are totally legal and buypass the laws on lobbyist pandering] and the
willingness of our "elected" officials to accept this pandering.

Average life expetancy
for our species is the highest it has ever been, and it keeps
increasing.
And, the quality of life (including debts from health care being passed
back onto the estates of survivors causing 1/3 of them to become destitue
[I have two refernces for this]) for people in terminal illness may not be
worth what it is costing (see book "Final Exit" for its purposes).

More people (and a higher percentage) own houses in the
United States that at any time since the formation of our country (what
is it like in Canada?).
You need to make a distinction between true ownership (title held by the
occupant) and title held by the bank. Actually, no one owns anything: if
you don't pay your real estate taxes, just wait and see how long you own
anything.

I am making twice the salary I made a decade
ago;
Bad to cite one data point in many. Statistics from at least two studies
show hiring up in the USA in the last one year, overall average salary
down 5%.

and despite high housing prices here in the Silicon Valley, I am
still better off than I was then, having more disposable real income.
Citing your own situation, again.
It's called progress.
Sounds to me like one person's self-evaluation.

Pardon me for supplying an antithesis to a thesis.
BMJ
2005-04-15 21:29:57 UTC
Permalink
straydog wrote:

<snip>
Post by straydog
You need to make a distinction between true ownership (title held by the
occupant) and title held by the bank. Actually, no one owns anything: if
you don't pay your real estate taxes, just wait and see how long you own
anything.
And what are the motives for owning a house? Is it because someone
wants to settle down in one place and, perhaps, raise a family? Or is
it, like one chap who used to work at my bank, buy the house in hopes of
quickly flipping it for a profit?
Post by straydog
I am making twice the salary I made a decade
ago;
Bad to cite one data point in many. Statistics from at least two studies
show hiring up in the USA in the last one year, overall average salary
down 5%.
Meanwhile, inflation still exists, though not at the outrageous rates of
thirty years ago.

<snip>
straydog
2005-04-15 23:59:01 UTC
Permalink
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:29:57 GMT
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Calls To White House Outsourced To India
<snip>
Post by straydog
You need to make a distinction between true ownership (title held by the
occupant) and title held by the bank. Actually, no one owns anything: if
you don't pay your real estate taxes, just wait and see how long you own
anything.
And what are the motives for owning a house?
I've actually read financial analyses where it ends up that the main
reason to own a house is to own it and its an emotional decision. This is
what I call a non-economic but priceless factor in our decisions to do
certain things.

Other financial analyses have, based on various kinds of assumptions,
shown that the answer can range from: i) making a lot of economic sense,
to ii) not making any sense.

Is it because someone wants to
settle down in one place and, perhaps, raise a family? Or is it, like one
chap who used to work at my bank, buy the house in hopes of quickly flipping
it for a profit?
Around the USA, the articles say, there are some houses that are
being bought and sold an average of five times before they are finished
(and the price goes up an average of 15-20% each time).
Post by straydog
I am making twice the salary I made a decade
ago;
Bad to cite one data point in many. Statistics from at least two studies
show hiring up in the USA in the last one year, overall average salary down
5%.
Meanwhile, inflation still exists, though not at the outrageous rates of
thirty years ago.
Well, if you could get into the right neighborhood you could make a lot of
money on housing appreciation.
zach
2005-04-16 00:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by straydog
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:29:57 GMT
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Calls To White House Outsourced To India
<snip>
Post by straydog
You need to make a distinction between true ownership (title held by the
occupant) and title held by the bank. Actually, no one owns
anything: if
Post by straydog
Post by straydog
you don't pay your real estate taxes, just wait and see how long you own
anything.
And what are the motives for owning a house?
I've actually read financial analyses where it ends up that the main
reason to own a house is to own it and its an emotional decision. This is
what I call a non-economic but priceless factor in our decisions to do
certain things.
I agree to a certain extent. I have no emotional need to attach myself
to a house. I nice piece of property in the woods, maybe... Part of
this comes from my mom losing both a house, and 25 acres of good land
(with riverfront property, damn) in foreclosures within a 5 year period
when I was a kid. That, and living in a camper... briefly in a car...
staying in a shelter once. I kind of realized that material things and
security are fleeting. As long as I have a roof over my head, it is
better than what I had for half of my childhood, so what do I care if I
rent as opposed to buy?

A friend, the workaholic, does have an emotional attachment to his
house, but he is the kind of person who takes enormous pride in
everything he does. He can spend a few hours on a Sat. morning "working
on the house" when I don't see anything change. But he loves it. He
said to me "you should buy a house, and then I can help you work on
it." Uh, no thanks, I am a lazy bastid.

In any case, he bought 3 years ago for $265K, and how this house is
nearing the $400K range in value. That is nice if you are a speculator.
He, however, is trying to start a family. Sure they can sell and take a
nice profit, but where will they move to? He and his wife both work
around the Sacramento area, so they are stuck within a 40 mile radius.
Anything comparable is _at least_ as much as their house is worth. And
they would have 5 years of wasted interest, though I'm sure one could
do a detailed calculation on interest rate, refinancing, appreciation,
buy-in for the new house, etc. Later on, he could save up and move into
something else, keeping this one as a rental, but that is down the line
a few years. He is fortunate in that he has a job which provides a
company vehicle, so I figure he saves around $7K/yr. not having a car.
straydog
2005-04-16 01:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Date: 15 Apr 2005 17:25:49 -0700
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Calls To White House Outsourced To India
Post by straydog
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:29:57 GMT
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Calls To White House Outsourced To India
<snip>
Post by straydog
You need to make a distinction between true ownership (title held
by the
Post by straydog
Post by straydog
occupant) and title held by the bank. Actually, no one owns
anything: if
Post by straydog
Post by straydog
you don't pay your real estate taxes, just wait and see how long
you own
Post by straydog
Post by straydog
anything.
And what are the motives for owning a house?
I've actually read financial analyses where it ends up that the main
reason to own a house is to own it and its an emotional decision.
This is
Post by straydog
what I call a non-economic but priceless factor in our decisions to
do
Post by straydog
certain things.
I agree to a certain extent. I have no emotional need to attach myself
to a house. I nice piece of property in the woods, maybe... Part of
this comes from my mom losing both a house, and 25 acres of good land
(with riverfront property, damn) in foreclosures within a 5 year period
when I was a kid. That, and living in a camper... briefly in a car...
staying in a shelter once. I kind of realized that material things and
security are fleeting. As long as I have a roof over my head, it is
better than what I had for half of my childhood, so what do I care if I
rent as opposed to buy?
Hey, we all rationalize our actions, decisions, hesitations, and gropes.
A friend, the workaholic, does have an emotional attachment to his
house, but he is the kind of person who takes enormous pride in
everything he does. He can spend a few hours on a Sat. morning "working
on the house" when I don't see anything change. But he loves it. He
said to me "you should buy a house, and then I can help you work on
it." Uh, no thanks, I am a lazy bastid.
Hey....see above.
In any case, he bought 3 years ago for $265K, and how this house is
nearing the $400K range in value. That is nice if you are a speculator.
He, however, is trying to start a family. Sure they can sell and take a
nice profit, but where will they move to? He and his wife both work
around the Sacramento area, so they are stuck within a 40 mile radius.
Anything comparable is _at least_ as much as their house is worth. And
they would have 5 years of wasted interest, though I'm sure one could
do a detailed calculation on interest rate, refinancing, appreciation,
buy-in for the new house, etc. Later on, he could save up and move into
something else, keeping this one as a rental, but that is down the line
a few years. He is fortunate in that he has a job which provides a
company vehicle, so I figure he saves around $7K/yr. not having a car.
There are strategies to building wealth, but, yes, if he sells the house
and makes more than he paid for it, then has to buy another one, he has to
pay more, too. But, there are lots of caveats....

BMJ
2005-04-15 21:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by BMJ
<snip>
Post by straydog
Well, Russell, I read the screed, too. He had some important points
as
Post by straydog
well as some questionalble (maybe wrong) points. Old timers I've
communicated with by email say the same thing is happening in Oz and
Gt
Post by straydog
Britain: consolidation of major big business, expansion and its all
driving out the small independent shops in small towns, which are
undergoing various kinds of deterioration, blight appearing, etc. Big
box
Post by straydog
development, etc. All part of the rich-get-richer-etc. Expansion of
the
Post by straydog
gap. Disenfranchisement, marginalization. Jobs going to immigrants
b/c
Post by straydog
they will work for less, jobs being exported to India/China, the
whole
Post by straydog
nine yards.
More people are living at a higher standard of living than ever in
human history. More people in the world live in democracies and liberal
democracies than at any time in human history.
Because there are more people alive than ever in human history?

Average life expetancy
Post by BMJ
for our species is the highest it has ever been, and it keeps
increasing. More people (and a higher percentage) own houses in the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Can you verify this?
Post by BMJ
United States that at any time since the formation of our country (what
is it like in Canada?).
Because there are more people now than before?

I am making twice the salary I made a decade
Post by BMJ
ago; and despite high housing prices here in the Silicon Valley, I am
still better off than I was then, having more disposable real income.
It's called progress.
But does that "progress" apply to *everyone*? Are we really better off
now than before?
straydog
2005-04-15 23:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:24:05 GMT
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Calls To White House Outsourced To India
Post by BMJ
<snip>
Post by straydog
Well, Russell, I read the screed, too. He had some important points
as
Post by straydog
well as some questionalble (maybe wrong) points. Old timers I've
communicated with by email say the same thing is happening in Oz and
Gt
Post by straydog
Britain: consolidation of major big business, expansion and its all
driving out the small independent shops in small towns, which are
undergoing various kinds of deterioration, blight appearing, etc. Big
box
Post by straydog
development, etc. All part of the rich-get-richer-etc. Expansion of
the
Post by straydog
gap. Disenfranchisement, marginalization. Jobs going to immigrants
b/c
Post by straydog
they will work for less, jobs being exported to India/China, the
whole
Post by straydog
nine yards.
More people are living at a higher standard of living than ever in
human history. More people in the world live in democracies and liberal
democracies than at any time in human history.
Because there are more people alive than ever in human history?
Also, because there are more people alive today, then there are more
people that are also suffering and starving, more people dying in car
acceidents, more dying from AIDs, etc., etc., too?
Average life expetancy
Post by BMJ
for our species is the highest it has ever been, and it keeps
increasing. More people (and a higher percentage) own houses in the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Can you verify this?
Probably also a higher percentage who are homeless, too?
Post by BMJ
United States that at any time since the formation of our country (what
is it like in Canada?).
Because there are more people now than before?
I am making twice the salary I made a decade
Post by BMJ
ago; and despite high housing prices here in the Silicon Valley, I am
still better off than I was then, having more disposable real income.
It's called progress.
But does that "progress" apply to *everyone*? Are we really better off now
than before?
Nah, its like the statistician who drowned in a creek with an average
depth of three feet?

There's more money in the world today (recalling from Griffin's book),
but...is it real money?
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